A discussion between myself and Hotherus, Pt. 4: Forming an Elite and the External Position

Hotherus: I‘m of the view that the Kali Yuga is only just beginning and even if the 432,000 year figure is not correct, mankind can still sink much lower than its current state. Brief and minor Golden Ages may be possible even within this dark time, but I do not think they will just happen of themselves, only through the intentional actions of men, under the right conditions. Whether conditions or men capable of creating such an age currently exist, I do not know.

I agree we must increasingly turn inward and steadfastly refuse to allow external conditions to alter our true course. The question is if there is any role that we can or should play in today’s world or if it is instead better for us to withdraw entirely. Are any of the religions worth saving? Any institution of any kind? If not, then we must retreat from the world and devote ourselves to inner growth and development until such a time that a sufficient number have gained the wisdom and strength necessary to create new religions and institutions rooted in Tradition.

I recently read the Bika Reed translation of the Dispute between a man and his Ba (Rebel in the Soul) where the speaker is contemplating suicide, with the expectation, or at least desperate hope, that he will escape the physical world and join the spiritual one. His soul responds “Brother, as long as you burn you belong to life.”

In weaker moments, while not hoping to escape earthly life, I have thought that perhaps I should just end this particular incarnation now, and hope that the next life would be one of better circumstances. This of course is delusion. Even if there were to be another incarnation circumstances would not be better. Reality cannot be avoided. It is what it is, and it must be faced.

Ideally and for most necessarily, there must be some sort of externally imposed structure for life to have meaning. This includes those of warrior and priest disposition. The religions are corrupt. There may be small pockets led by genuine teachers, or there may not, or they may be inaccessible. If at all possible one should find such groups, or form one of like minded individuals, those committed to developing wisdom, strength, and excellence. If necessary one may have no choice but to live as a hermit, totally withdrawn, but that’s a very difficult life, one that very few can really live successfully. But as you say there are many paths that have been pointed out to us and it’s to our advantage to explore them as deeply as we can.

Adam: I’m in utter agreement with you that the prime question is whether or not we should attempt to play any roles in the external world. I really am torn on this issue, because on the one hand, I know enlightened individuals will appear consistently whether or not I personally attempt to show a path, and moreover that even in my showing a path, the number of people who will actually – genuinely – see the path for themselves is extremely miniscule. There are thousands of people in the alt. right attacking and analyzing the consequences of things, but almost no-one seeing the causes, the originators, of today’s woes. I think we do live, due to this confusion – even amid the “revolt” – in times where conditions are almost ready. What’s lacking is an organized, truthful, profound “sect,” almost, within the alt. right/Reactosphere/Tradosphere which could organize the rabble into something sharp, direct and honorable. The emergence of this is a possibility – not to say that it’s likely. The “white Nationalist,” “race-realist,” “neofascist,” and so on, elements within something like the Reactosphere are holding it back due to their modernism and materialism, and only a true “elite” in the Guénonian sense would actually be able to march into these spheres and set them straight.

A more likely picture, again involving a Guénonian elite, could be the potential scenario after a “collapse” of sorts. These men would take control of street movements like National Action and the various identitarian movements throughout Europe and bend them into a more militaristic, spiritual direction. Of course, what I’m hypothesizing here would require almost Divine luck, and not to mention the further unlikeliness of this due to a Guénonian elite’s view of these movements. They would be seen as – essentially – a kind of materialistic rabble who are only reacting abase strictly worldly lines; just further evidence of the Kali Yuga, I suppose.

For some genuine “correction” to take place in a really profound sense, I’m going to say it would take something akin to another Dark Age to quell the subversive elements in modernity enough for the heroes to gain the upper hand. Just like a snake constricts tighter and tighter the more one struggles, if one is to relax and give the beast the illusion that it has won, then, when it relaxes to re-orientate itself to consume you, you defeat it. A taking advantage of the scenario in such a sense seems unattainable now, considering the venomously hegemonic nature of the present zeitgeist which, like the snake, will only tighten its grasp at any sign of resistance, but maybe it will be possible in the future. I think it will.

As far as religious doctrines or other institutions go, I think the only way to “save” anything at this point is through one’s own mastery of it, and then the relaying of this unto one’s children and smaller community. Like I said previously in regard to great men and great societies; it is not the external which shapes the internal, but the internal which shapes the external. This is the only way anything can be preserved properly, earnestly, honestly – as purely as possible. By one’s own studying, contemplation, et cetera. Subtle action. The subtle internal instead of the unsubtle external; but then the subtle external via the subtle internal. We must cease relying on the outside world for our needs. You are right that it is needed for wider society and most individuals to flourish – with framework comes direction – but I do not think we have a choice anymore due to how far the preexisting institutions and such have deteriorated.

This goes back again to our question on whether we should have roles in the external world. I think we need to have this role; similar to Evola, insomuch as we are able to. Evola’s body of work is mighty, but it is not complete nor is it particularly accessible to those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear. I am not advocating we scrap the esoteric to favour as many people as possible, but I do think more work must be done. If no-one else will do it, who will? Gornahoor, Counter Currents and so on are a small part of this, but there is no reason for those of us who are “switched on” to shy away and let others do all the work. I do think we have a role available to us; that is to get as many to the lifeboats as possible, essentially. Writing blog posts, recording podcasts, having conversations like this, are all a part of that, I think. It’s a positive, constructive step which can only build – not destroy. Of course, if these things are done in the wrong manner then adverse effects can arise, but I think you and I, for example, are sensible enough.

The externally imposed structure could come – partly – from people like you and I. You speak of “small pockets led by genuine teachers” which could be “inaccessible.” This is tricky as some esoteric groups are just that – esoteric; secret; closed – and they should be. I do, however, feel that the current scenario is so dire that some rules must be bent, or new ones developed. I’m all for the hoarding of knowledge and the keeping of secrets away from the “vulgar swine who, when pearls are cast before them, would trample them,” but there are many among the herd who are simply lost, dazed and confused. I imagine you weren’t always the man you are now; the same goes for me and many others, and it was only through the seeing of small scraps of information as well as what seems to be fate which led me here where I am now. It is said of the Kybalion that it only appears in one’s life when it is needed most. That was true for me when I read it a short while after being sent a download link by nobody tm, and maybe it’ll be for you when you read it – if that’s now or later. Does this mean, then, that I am an active participant in fate? In destiny? In the mysterious way things can sometimes be timed just right? If so, what is preventing my endeavors in the sort of philosophical realms to be of a similar character? Say a post I wrote made it to the eyes of someone who then ended up on the path which you and I are treading, and it was my post which began this – would it be worthwhile? I think it would be, absolutely. I’ve made this point before, however; in relation to Buddha receiving guidance from Brahma.

Hotherus: The fact that you grew up outside of any religious tradition may give you an advantage that I don’t have. As unsatisfactory as my Protestant upbringing was, and the fact that I have not regularly attended Church in over ten years, I still have a romantic attachment to Christianity. Several years ago when I visited the Church of St Paul Outside the Walls in Rome I was affected while viewing the portraits of the Popes. I felt a great sense of loss, a tradition I should have had, but didn’t, or only a shadow of it. While I don’t think I could be part of it, I would still like to see the Church restored.

This may be impossible however, and the same may be true of all the major religions. I think you’re quite right that we cannot afford to rely on externals, religions, institutions, or leaders. We should cooperate with others as much as possible, but ultimately we must do the work ourselves. I’ve wasted many years looking for some “movement” that just isn’t there.

There may be no better option than to simply have “faith” that when the collapse comes, the new elite will appear, that this new elite will have essentially created themselves, without the benefit of religions and institutions.

There is so much work to do, that it is daunting, even overwhelming. The reason I wish so desperately for some external structure and discipline is that I know my own inclination to laziness. I feel the burden of enormous amounts of wasted time and resources. Perhaps you don’t struggle with this to the extent that I do. In any case the work has to be done, the only alternative is destruction.

Adam: I don’t think your connection to Christianity is something trivial or “romantic,” I think your sense that something is being lost is quite the case in reality. The present scenario actually is very tragic, and some of us will be more moved by this. I know I’m not exactly immune to what’s before my eyes – the loss of tradition, especially the European Christian tradition, is rather painful. It’s a violent severing between the soul and body; a fracturing; a ripping apart which leaves us with nothing.

I think any elite which arises will – as it is the elite – make do with the situation they’ve inherited. We could be a part of this group for all I know, on some level. I think anyone who has reached a kind of “Evolian conclusion” is a part of this elite to some degree. The “active” part, though – the part which actively rebuilds the external institutions and so on – will come at a later point. That is not to say you, I and others have no role there, though. As said, one of the most important steps is the turning inwards – only through enough people doing this will it be successfully projected into the external to a strong enough degree. But the “active” role to be assumed in the future will entail a rebuilding of exoteric religiosity; the ordering of groups within society and so on and so forth. First the internal, then the external; the external is a reflection of the internal. Familiar territory, I know.

As far as wasting time? Nonsense. The fact that you are aware of the state of affairs is an active position; you haven’t assumed a kind of isolation and anti-everything-ness which has consumed others of a pessimistic nature. Your very writing of words to me or elsewhere is an outwards grasp towards the world by your own initiative, which can be utilized in a certain direction. It’s the fuel, not the engine, if you see my meaning. As long as you continue to speak, to think, to know and to desire, then that is an affront to laziness, to apathy, to the nihilism which has swallowed many people within the broad masses. Of course we long for external direction and for structure, but we must form that ourselves – and we’re already doing it via the aforementioned channels (blogs/podcasts/conversations/et cetera). Of course, these things take time to fully crystallize, but it is a process which has been set in motion; slowly but steadily; and can only be stopped by a sudden, absolute withdrawal which at this point I think we’ve ruled-out.

Part 3 >


As a man among men, I can learn.

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